Diego Cuoghi
English translation by Leonardo Serni
Following the link titled "September 11th, the driving license that could not be" found on a web page, I stumbled on an article in Luogocomune.net’s news section, titled “Documenti falsi nella buca di Shanksville”.
In this article Massimo Mazzucco (editor of the web-site and author of “The New American Century” and many other DVDs) claims that the license issued to CeeCee Ross Lyles (The United States vs. Zacarias Moussaoui Prosecution Trial Exhibit # P200069), one of the victims of the United Airlines Flight 93 crash in Shanksville on 9/11, is a fakery since, he claims, "the document is a duplicate of the original license issued by Florida Motor Vehicles Department in June 2001. The original license, to the name of CeeCee Ross Lyles, appears to have been issued in 1997, but CeeCee Ross married Lorne Lyles only in 2000. So how could she have the Lyles last name in 1997?"
The same story is found in many other websites around the world, like these: http://economicsnewspaper.com http://www.whale.to/b/fake_driver.html
Mazzucco goes so far as to doubt the very death of the woman, writing as he does that she "would have purportedly died - according to the official version - in the Shanksville crash". The official version, according to Mazzucco, is false, since according to him the 9/11 attack has been planned by no other than the U.S. Government, and several documents recovered from the wreckage are fakes, planted in an attempt to frame Al Qaida's islamic terrorists.
Regarding the two main World Trade Center towers, Mazzucco is definite and claims "in my opinion, for the WTC they used a mixed technique with normal explosives, nano-thermite and maybe also other weapons, whose very existence we're unaware of".
I really had a hard time bearing the mass of absurdities, crazy assumptions and kindergarten reasonings liberally sprinkled throughout the article and its comments, but I did arrive at the end of the page. With the moral certainty that the document denounced as "undoubtedly false" by Mazzucco was, on the contrary, absolutely authentic. Mazzucco's "proofs" boil down to unverified assumptions, based on the conviction that on a license's duplicate, especially in case of name changes, there can't be the date of original issuance in addition to the duplicate's.
In successive messages, Massimo Mazzucco (with the nickname “Redazione”) writes, "That document can not exist as such, so we have no need of showing 'where' it was retouched".
"If it is a duplicate of the real document, that document couldn't have existed in 1997. Therefore the one shown in the Massaoui trial is a fakery. If it is not a duplicate of the real document, it is a fakery anyway: since it says 'Duplicate', and isn't. Any other line of reasoning is purely speculative and useless. Someone has to explain how a legally valid DUPLICATE may exist of a document that could not have, in the first place, existed at all."
To those wondering why, in faking a document to be shown at a trial, someone could make such a moronic mistake, Mazzucco answers, "Well, those who do these things have a brain working in a really, really different way than ours, and they operate with a very specific purpose: the fakeries such as Ms. Lyles' license are used in kangaroo courts such as Massaoui's to be shown to the jury and nothing else. The jury looks at Lyles' license, cries 'Poor thing!' and condemns Massaoui - who is fucking innocent anyway - to a life sentence."
And adds, "However, I tried to put myself in the clothes of someone receiving such an order, 'Get me this CeeCee Ross Lyles' driving license'. What does he do? I don't think he steals it from her. First of all he asks DMV for a duplicate. And then he notices that on the duplicate she's called CeeCee Ross, so he just adds a nice 'Lyles' beside."
And this is nothing - the comments of some of the site's readers are even worse:
Rickard: "In practice, several of the passengers of the various 9/11 flights - flights on whose existence there already are tons of doubts and contradictions - are people that in all probability never even existed."
DjGiostra: "The question remains, where did the crashed flights' "passengers" go !!!!"
artealen: "to solve the issue of the existence or lack thereof of the so-called 'disappeared victims' of the purported crashes, you'd have to look for the 'disappeared''s home addresses, prepare some questions, arm with microphone, recorder, camera and make the rounds and interview as many family members (or presumed such) as possible: I know it may seem expensive, boring and even doomed, but you'd get the satisfaction of touching bodily these "proofs", I'm sure much more would come out... starting, why not, with the pretended "families" living nearest to your or delegating friends and acquaintances you'll surely have in the U.S...."
Only two people, "skully" and "inquisitor", dare oppose these ravings. They don't think it strange that a duplicate shows the original issuance date, and they even supply examples found on the Web.
"skully" shows a manual on USA's driving license features, clearly showing that rules vary wildly between the various States of the Union, from the numbering to the dates in the various fields. In the case of Florida, the original issuance date is clearly shown as possibly appearing together with the duplicate. But the image on the manual is "only an example with a made-up name", not a real license!
“inquisitor” then proposes a real license found on the Web, which shows a case similar to that of CeeCee Lyles. It's on the webpage of a trans-sexual who, after obtaining a gender adjustment from male to female, requested a new driving license (in Florida, sex changes, as well as name changes, require a reissue of the driving license code, not unlike what happens in Italy with the citizen IRS code).
And in the document, both the original issuance date and the duplicate are shown, exactly as in the controversial CeeCee Lyles' license.
At this point, in the LuogoComune's discussion, “DrHouse” honestly admits that these facts may confirm CeeCee Lyles' driving license's authenticity, and links a 2008 message from a U.S. forum, where employees of the Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles confirm that a duplicate "will show both the original and duplicate dates”.
But Mazzucco refuses to cry uncle, writes of "calling Florida DMV" and even publishes the audio of a phone call wherein a Customer Service employee says that such a case - name change plus request of a duplicate - would obtain a "new license altogether... (garble) ...with all new necessary papers” which is taken to mean a totally new license without the original issuance date.
Mazzucco writes two times of calling "Florida's DMV"... I wondered what office could it be. In California, where he lives, the DMV is in fact the government office issuing driving licenses, but what about Florida? Through Google, I found two DMV's in Florida, neither a government office. They are both privately owned firms in the business of car sale, insurance, and licensing requests. Later in the discussion, Mazzucco wrote that the office was a FLHSMV Driver License Service Center in Miami.
He could have, at the very least, transcripted the short dialogue; perish the thought. Even if the call (in english) was made by him, he loftily quips, "I hope someone wishes to translate, thank you". In a later message he adds, "I'm not saying that the others have lied, rest assured. But you need to check how the questions were maed, and follow the dialogue before jumping to conclusions. I believe I have asked my questions in a clear and unequivocal way. Keep in mind that here in the U.S. talking to a state employee is just like talking to a machine, they're not programmed to supply opinions but only to react to your input, with an if/then logic. Hence the need, first of all, of asking clear and precise questions".
Getting back to CeeCee Lyles' driving license, he repeats, "As far as I'm concerned, I can say with confidence that based on available information and until proof to the contrary, that document is a fake. That's enough for me to add no question marks to the article's title."
At this point I thought that the only thing to do to clear the matter and dispel all doubts was to directly contact the FLHSMV, the government office which issues driving licenses, to ask for a clear and precise answer on the issue, attaching a picture of the document in question in which the alphanumeric code is clearly visible, and the smaller print dates slightly less so. Here the original picture from Moussaoui's case exhibits:
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200069.jpg
And here is my message, written in a poor English:
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Ms. XXXXXXXXXX
I found your address in this page: http://www.flhsmv.gov/html/records.html
I write you (and I wrote also to YYYYYYY@flhsmv.gov) because I think you are informed about the rules and laws of driver licenses.
I need informations about a driver license duplicate. My question is: if a woman obtained the driver license in 12-02-97 with the last name of the first husband, and then divorce and marry again, and asked for a duplicate (maybe after missing the card), the new card show the new surname with both the original issue date and the duplicate date as in this example? http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200069.jpg
I know that the laws are changed, so I refer to the driver licenses of ten years ago.
In another web page I found a similar case, a person who changed sex from M to F and his driver license, after the change of the name, shows the original issue date of 1998 and the duplicate date of 2003 with new name. http://www.ftmtransition.com/transition/namechange/nclegalprocess.html#
The same situation, so it seems all regular.
Kind Regards
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I sent the message on Thursday night and the following afternoon - in practice almost as soon as they opened office in Florida - a FLHSMV employee answered me:
"When a duplicate Florida license is issued it will show the original issuance date as well as the duplicate issuance date. You are correct in your statement that a person could have one name on the original issuance and a different name on a duplicate issuance. The name change would be reflected on the record history with this type of issuance."
So CeeCee Lyles's driving license is perfectly normal. There's no fakery or plot as Mazzucco believes.
More than satisfied I asked whether this answer could be considered "official" and publishable by me on a web page. I was told that in this case, i.e., a request for FLHSMV's official position, it would have been better to ask the Communication Office. I followed this piece of advice and I repeated my request to the address I had been given: namely, if in case of a duplicate request on the part of a woman which, meanwhile, had changed her last name following a divorce and remarriage, the new document would have reported both the original issuance date, and the duplicate date. Again I attached CeeCee Lyles' document picture from the Web.
After a few hours I received an official, and much more detailed, answer from the FLHSMV Communication Office:
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The response to your question, “In particular I wanted to know if a duplicate will show the original issuance date as well as the duplicate issuance date. Even if the last name of the person changed in the meanwhile (for example a divorce and a new marriage),” is yes and was yes at the time the license in question was issued.
Department records reflect the following information:
CeeCee Ross was issued a renewal Florida Driver License on Dec. 2, 1997 that would expire on Nov. 26, 2003.
CeeCee Ross was issued a replacement license on Oct. 6, 1999.
CeeCee Ross Lyles was issued a replacement license on May 5, 2000.
CeeCee Ross Lyles was issued a replacement license on May 23, 2001.
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This document closes the matter forever.
CeeCee Ross married Lyles Von Lorne on May 1st, 2000, both at the time lived in Tampa, Hillsbourgh, Florida.
Surely the woman asked the variation of the last name on the document. In fact, she obtained a duplicate on May 5th, 2000, on which, as stated by FLHSMV, the new last name “Lyles” was added.
The house at 4024 WINKLER AVE EXT # 201 FT MYERS, FL 33912 was built in 2000, as shown in Lee County Property Appraiser's website.
CeeCee Ross Lyles probably moved to Fort Myers with her family in 2001, and later obtained the last duplicate license, which I imagine has been requested due to the change of residence.
Mazzucco, in his article about false document of CeeCee Ross Lyles, tells lies, just as so many others in the "truth on 9/11" world.
That such a hoax might still occupy hundreds of webpages in 'truther' sites and forums is appalling (check with Google 'CeeCee Ross Lyles driver license').
CeeCee Ross Lyles' driving license is authentic, and all Florida driving license duplicates are just like hers, showing both the original issuance date and the duplicate date. Does Mazzucco still believe otherwise? Let him go to Florida and Xerox the licenses of whoever he passes by, especially those with a similar matrimonial history to CeeCee Ross Lyles' one, and present his "proofs".
Diego Cuoghi
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UPDATES (english translations by Diego Cuoghi)
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UPDATE 1: I was banned from Luogocomune forum and the webmaster suddenly closed the discussion with this phrase:
COMMENTS ARE CLOSED FOR THIS THREAD. IT IS PROHIBITED TO OPEN NEW THREADS ON THE SAME TOPIC ELSEWHERE.
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UPDATE 2: The editors of the Undicisettembre blog contacted the FLHSMV to seek further clarification on the duplicate license and the laws governing the variations of the name and address:
http://undicisettembre.blogspot.com/2011/09/patenti-impossibili.html
FLHSMV confirmed that, in case of change of name or address, what you get is not a new license with a new date of issue, but a duplicate license, which maintains the original issue and expiry date with the requested variations of name or address.
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Q: If a person such as Mrs Lyles married on 05/01/2000 and asked to apply changes on her driver's license, what kind of license would have been released according to rules in force at the time? A new one or a duplicate showing the same license number, issue and expiry date but including the new full married name and new duplicate date?
A: The license issued would have been a duplicate showing an original issuance date and the duplicate issuance date. The new license would include her married name as long as she provided the documentation required at the time to change the name on her license, a new driver license number, and the same expiration date as the original driver license issuance.
Q: Is it correct to say that that the license duplicate obtained by CeeCee Ross on May 5, 2000 was due to her marriage and consequent name change and the one dated May 23, 2001 was due to an address change?
A: Ms. Lyles changed her name when she obtained a duplicate license May 5, 2000. Her address changed when she received a duplicate license May 23, 2001.
Q: Could you provide a reference to the rules that were applicable at the time?
A: The 2001 Florida Statutes: Title XXIII Motor Vehicles - Chapter 322 Drivers' Licenses
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UPDATE 3
When I received the two email responses, I asked both people to publish their full posts on a web page, but both have asked to not display their names and telephone numbers (fixed and mobile) that appeared in messages. I can understand, but unfortunately it was not what I expected.
So, instead of writing other emails, I sent a real letter to the Direction of FLHSMV, enclosing an inkjet print of the CeeCee Ross Lyles license picture found in the web, and asking very clearly and unequivocally a true “official statement" fully publishable. I finally received a letter with the definitive answer, this one by mail, which confirms the other answers received in email.
The "copy" that is mentioned is my inkjet print of the CeeCee Ross Lyles's license, which I attached to the letter.
Here is the full scan of the letter I received: www.diegocuoghi.com/ceecee/resources/FLHSMV_Letter.jpg
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I would like this witness of mine to be considered a token of respect not only for CeeCee Ross Lyles, but also for all the other victims of the 9/11 attacks and their families, who after all these years still are slighted by unfounded conspirationist codswallop.
